The Editorial Board of FRJ wanted to hear from a family law clerk. By universal acclaim, Steve McCrone was agreed as ‘the senior man’ having been clerking for nearly 35 years and so the invitation fell to him (other senior clerks are available).

Steve, can I ask you how old were you when you started clerking?

I actually came into clerking slightly later – my first job was in the Civil Service and I worked as a Family Division associate in the High Court. I then was on a temporary promotion; I then did get promoted, but one of the conditions of the promotion was transferring me to the Criminal Appeal Office, which, to be honest Rhys, I absolutely hated! I still kept in touch with some of the clerks that I knew and, to cut a long story short, I applied for a position in chambers as a fixing clerk. I let my Civil Service employers know that I was going to leave, and their best attempt to persuade me to stay was ‘Steve, think about your Civil Service pension’. And I said, ‘Well, if that is the best reason at 20 you’ve got to keep me, then I’m definitely going’. I left and went to 5 King’s Bench Walk as a listing clerk in the Family Division, so certainly for the first 3 or 4 years I had a charmed life because I was fixing cases with all the people who, until very recently, I’d been working with and primarily got every date I wanted (some things never change!).

So that’s how I got into it – a slightly different route than the traditional start as a junior clerk. I suppose you could say, technically, I’ve never, ever been a junior, junior clerk, but that’s how I started.

Can you describe the clerks’ room and the typical duties you had when you started out?

Definitely. I was in a clerks’ room where there was just me and two other clerks. It was a common law set, so I very quickly got used to dealing with family, criminal, civil, all types of work, so it was just a brilliant introduction. Nigel Dyer, who you know, was a member of those chambers, and for example I remember him being regularly sent across the Western Circuit to prosecute football hooligans – it was certainly a different clerks’ room. There were, as I say, the three of us there. Fee note runs were photocopying fee notes that were kept in a big filing cabinet, and I had to cut them down to size and put them into envelopes. But, you know, they were great times, and it was just a brilliant introduction to the job, because I really got to learn, at a very early age, about so many different areas of clerking. It really put me in great stead for the future.

How have things changed in the clerks’ room down the years? Do you think it’s for the better or the worse? And in what way?

The major difference for me was definitely the computerisation. I’m not saying I had literal fights (came close to it once or twice though), but when I first started off, we had a paper diary, and obviously every enquiry was coming in by phone and the clerks would argue over the diary because it was the only way of seeing if people were available.

I’ll never forget the introduction of when emails first came in, our senior clerk was so distrusting of them! He used to ask us to make notes of the emails and keep them in a book, it was sort of almost Dickensian! Now, with its computerisation – with the diary, with the fee procedures – it’s the difference between light and shade, it’s transformational, really.

The actual day-to-day job is pretty much the same, to be honest – that hasn’t changed much. I think for me, it’s more to do with the computerisation of the fee system as well as obviously emails, which now all of us are beholden to.

And outside the clerks’ room – do you have any observations as to how the Temple has changed during your career?

It’s always been a brilliant place to work, full of character, the facade of the buildings and the regular requests we get for filming just show how old the Temple is. But inside those buildings, most of the chambers, certainly in the Temple, are just modern offices with all the up-to-date equipment. Funnily enough, today I was talking to a mini-pupil in chambers and she was saying to me that she hadn’t really been in this area, and she couldn’t believe that between one of the busiest streets in London – Fleet Street – and Embankment was the Temple. She said she actually wandered around a bit here before just to get a feel for it. It is like an oasis of calm, so I don’t think the chambers itself has changed so much, even now I just love coming into the Temple every morning – it’s just a great place to work.

And how has the family law profession changed in your time?

Again, talking about the technology side, all the work we do has just been subject to continual modernisation. I remember I never used to see my junior clerks when I was in chambers, not that long ago to be honest. But now, seeing members go over to court with iPads when you know they’re doing a 5-day really complicated financial remedies trial is just amazing. Very recently, when I told the junior clerk there was a court run because one of the barristers had had to print out a lot of papers, they looked at me as if I had three heads! I suppose that’s a big change. I think as well, more sets have specialised, more boutique firms of solicitors have set up just to deal with the family law aspects of what we do as well.

One very recent change is the non-court dispute resolution. Sadly, it’s because of the legal system creaking at the edges and private FDRs, arbitrations and mediations are now a massive growth area, which I suppose, sadly, is reflective of how the law is, or that the courts are, at the moment. That’s been a real change, especially for instructions to chambers.

And do you have any observations about increased specialism in family law over your career?

When I first started off, because I was in a common law set, I really did see lots of different areas of law. Now, more sets specialise in the Family Division. My chambers specialise in money; there are sets that specialise in children cases and others that still do both. I suppose one of the biggest challenges for me was when the opportunity, if that’s the right word, of being given the option not to undertake legal aid work was introduced, it made a big difference, because most of our solicitors went down that route which definitely led to a reduction in children’s work, although that has definitely increased more recently. But that’s probably the most relevant area, I think.

So you’ve seen a lot of marital disharmony come through your clerks’ room with your cases. Do you have any observations about the institution of matrimony?

I think in some ways you could say it’s a sad sort of observation on life that sets like ours and other sets that specialise in matrimonial cases are busy. However, with such a strong Family Law Bar I genuinely feel that clients really do receive the best advice around.

Do you have any observations about the changing face of the judiciary, other than that they appear to be getting younger?

I’ve been lucky, as you know, to witness some of the great practitioners in law. Stephen Trowell, who’s recently been made a High Court judge, was a pupil when I first started in chambers – that, in some ways, makes me feel older, but also makes me feel that it’s great that I’m seeing those people become High Court judges, in my mind, relatively quickly. It’s Silk’s Day today, and I’ve noticed that a lot of the silks who are being appointed are younger. I personally think it’s a good thing, they’re more attuned to what’s really going on in the world at the moment, so I’d like to think that’s reflected in the decisions they make.

You’ve been involved in clerking some of the biggest cases which have changed family law. Do you have any comments about that experience from the clerks’ room perspective?

I feel very lucky that I’ve managed to be in chambers whilst those cases are taking place, they’re seminal cases. Various members who were involved in them are now High Court judges and some have become Court of Appeal judges. I’m just very lucky if I’m really honest, Rhys. It’s also nice to get the inside track on some of these big decisions that are made. Of course, they all remain completely confidential, but it’s just incredibly interesting to be involved in them and know that in a small way I’ve been actively involved, definitely.

One of the hardest relationships to pin down in the law is the relationship between the senior clerk and a barrister. Can you give us your take on that relationship? Who really is the boss?

Very good question! I suppose the relationship is built up over time and you get to know members extremely well. I have been lucky to work with lots of brilliant personalities and my relationship with them all is slightly different but equally important – they think they are the boss and of course they are...! I cited Stephen as an example – when I started in chambers both Stephen and Justin Warshaw were pupils; one is now a High Court Judge, one is now one of my senior silks.

I’ve also been lucky to have Mike and Dan working with me for over 20 years and their assistance to both me personally and chambers has been invaluable. They have both become more senior and experienced, have got to know all of the barristers individually and separately as well, and between us I like to think we make it work. On a personal level I’d like to think all members know that I would do anything I can to enhance their practice (within reason), the work that they get, their career progression and the remuneration they receive. Clearly, at times, you have to give some constructive criticism, and I’d like to think that the experience I’ve gained over the years, people appreciate it, that’s why they take it from me in the spirit that it’s meant. I’d like to think I play quite an integral part in how they develop at all seniorities but it works both ways, they certainly help me a lot and I’ve learnt so much every day in different ways to deal with things, so hopefully that answers the question.

Any advice to a young barrister starting out in family law?

I try to encourage any junior member of chambers to ideally spend as much time in chambers. Just being in chambers – talking to members of chambers or seeing them in action – is just invaluable. We also try to make sure that we bring them to the attention of as many clients, i.e. solicitors, as possible, just to, even at an early age from their second six, build up a rounded practice as well as looking to spend short secondments at firms. I’m sure they know that my or the clerks’ doors are open at any time, and if they’ve got any queries, or they need help or assistance just to come and see us. We really try to nurture, especially our junior members, because they are the future of chambers and pupils can end up being High Court judges as I referenced earlier!

What about advice to an older barrister?

Well again, you should be having regular discussions generally about practice, whether, for example, applications should be made to silk, or whether or not a really strong junior practice will translate into a really strong silk’s practice. Going back to the earlier answer, sometimes you have to have conversations that are not very easy, but as long as you’re being realistic and as open and honest as possible that’s my mantra. Sometimes I think with older barristers, I don’t really like that term, it’s also difficult because sometimes they don’t feel they have achieved what they deserve, whether that’s appointments, applying for silk or doing a particular case, it just hasn’t happened. I don’t think that’s necessarily a reflection on them, their personality or perhaps attitude to work – it’s just how our business works at times.

And what about advice to a young clerk?

Well, I think similar to a young barrister – just take in as much information as possible; don’t try and run before you can walk; just learn as much and listen to those all around you and don’t try to be something you’re not! Most junior clerks get frustrated with the more mundane junior clerk duties, they really want to get onto the more responsible areas of the clerking, but it really is a question of learning your trade, work as hard as you can, keep your head down and just become somebody that the barristers can feel completely reliant on – that works very well and the responsibility will come. We do get opportunities for business development and marketing, which often take the guise of receptions or solicitors’ parties. One thing I was told by my old senior clerk, which I still say to my junior clerks, is never be the person that everybody’s talking about tomorrow – that’s put me certainly in good stead.

Are there any memorable stories you’re allowed to tell?

There are literally loads of stories – as to how many I can tell, probably not many, Rhys, to be really honest! One that I will tell you which was great was on one of those said solicitors’ receptions – this was not recently, it was when I was at Mitre Court, actually before we came to Hare Court – I’d come into work the morning after the long night before. I sat down in the clerks’ room, my phone rang and Nicholas Wall, the President and ex-member of chambers, called me in and said to me, ‘Oh, Steve, what time does so and so start?’. I thought it was a bit of a strange question, but I said, ‘Well, he starts at 9 o’clock, but he’s not in yet’ and he just put the phone down, I didn’t think anything more of it. Then just before 9 o’clock, the phone rang again, and it was Nicholas Wall again. He said, ‘Steve, is it possible for you to pop over?’ and I said, ‘of course’. I had no idea why he wanted to see me, but anyway, I walked in. He had one of those great big rooms, and he was sitting behind a great big desk, and so I walked up and stood in front of his desk. He looked at me, but I noticed he was sort of looking past me rather than at me, and as I swivelled round, my junior clerk was fast asleep on the floor, and Wall said to me, ‘Steve, you’d better wake him because I don’t want him to be late for work’. It was one of my most embarrassing moments. As I’m talking to you now about it, I just thought it just illustrated the character of Wall and how much he felt for us as clerks. That was one of my funniest ones!

So what about clerks staying in one place, or moving about to different chambers? What do you see as the advantages and disadvantages?

The advantages are the more different areas of law that you learn about and become familiar with it gives you a better selling point for any opportunities that come up in other sets of chambers. I certainly know lots of clerks who have worked in different chambers and progressed to a very high level. I’ve been in chambers 35 years this May and I’ve stayed in these chambers for all of that time and I suppose you could say I haven’t done too bad! I would say that there’s benefits of both and I don’t think there’s any downside to either as long as you feel that you are progressing both personally and professionally. I suppose if you work in one chambers for a long while, then perhaps there’s an argument to say it makes it difficult for you to move. But again, I think all of us just have to take opportunities as and when they come and so I think there are pretty much pros and cons for both.

Would you do it all over again?

I think I definitely would. I think most people, to be honest, don’t even realise what a barrister’s clerk’s job is, you never see it advertised and still most clerks start off as a result of a friend of a friend introductions. I suppose, with more TV programmes, documentaries about the law, newspaper articles, etc, the role of a clerk has become more widely known and recognised. For the career I’ve had so far, for the most part I’ve loved it, it’s a brilliant job and I’m not really sure what else I would do, I really have loved working in chambers and definitely don’t regret leaving the Civil Service all those years ago. The short answer is yes, I probably would do it all again.

Could I ask you for your desert island book, your record and your luxury?

Well, I’ve always loved John Grisham books, so perhaps every one of his books, so I can read them over and over again! Funnily enough, probably the first one was The Firm which resonated a bit with me with because of the job that we’re doing, because that was all about a law firm and everything that goes with that.

A record – well, ever since I was a junior clerk, The Jam and Paul Weller were probably my go to, so I would say any record by The Jam or Paul Weller.

A luxury – probably something like a TV. You probably know I’m an absolute avid Spurs supporter and I’m putting my two sons through the same nightmare of supporting them in and out. Perhaps on my desert island I might see them win a trophy, that’s certainly something that I haven’t seen for a very, very long while!

And when you eventually get there, Steve, where will we find you in retirement?

Well, I’d definitely like to travel more. I’m lucky, work has taken me to lots of great places. I’ve been to Hong Kong and seen Nicholas Mostyn, Martin Pointer and Richard Todd there and certainly would like to re-visit. I really would like to travel more with my wife and there are loads of places we would like to go to (ideally fitting a bit of golf in as well). That’s probably a bit of a twee and predictable answer, but travel and just spending more time with my wife as obviously the job is the job and it takes up a lot of your time, and it’d be fantastic for us to spend more time together and finally stop looking at emails!

Steve McCrone. Thank you very much for your time this afternoon.

Not at all, I’ve absolutely loved it. It’s been a real privilege to be asked. Hopefully you’ve seen perhaps a little bit of a different side to me. I’ve been thrilled to do the interview, and thanks ever so much for asking me, Rhys.